Here's the setup [lots of good audio principles]

[lpugfan2004]

This is about my sound system in my car i didnt know where to put it so i posted it here....

OK

Ive got 2 12" kickers rated at 1200 watts peak power 2 ohm each
Ive got a 2 channel brigdgable 800 watt pioneer amp... which sometimes cuts off completely when i turn the volume to a certain point, ok i asked a friend about this and he told me that i needed to get a battery capacitor becauce the alternator and the battery couldnt supply the power needed when i turned it up.... is he correct?

ok onto the next thing about this he has a 1600 watt 2 channel Power Acoustics amp which i plan on buying from him in the next week since i was going to get a battery cap anyways ill just get a bigger one to support this amp.... now my question is how big of a battery capacitor do i need to handle the 1600 watts amp put to both subs 800 to each right now im only using 1 sub with 800 to one because the 400 to each sounds like shit....and it still cuts the amp off so i think i do need the cap

and my next question is that i have 5 gauge wire running my amp atm the guy that installed this amp said that could handle a 1600 watt power acoustics with no problem at all is he right? if not which gauge wire is recommended

thanks for the help
~Matt

[JR]

if it is just the amp cutting out it could also be becuz the subs are drawing too much power from the amp...I had this happen before...the sub could handle way more than the amp could provide and tried to draw too much from the amp, which made the amp heat up and automatically shut itself off. Upgrading your amp is an awesome idea...I've dealt with power acoutiks before (both amps and subs) while the subs I had weren't what I needed they were still really good considering the price and what I put them thru, and their amps are really good too. for the price they are pretty hard to beat

as for capacitors...also a really good idea, to save your alternator...rule of thumb is 1 farad (1 cap) per 1000W, so technically 2 would be ideal, and if you can afford it, would be a good choice, otherwise, one would do fine. another good upgrade would be an optima battery.

wiring...I've never even heard of 5 gauge...but non-the-less, it will be fine. When it comes to a daily driver stereo, most are wired with 8 gauge (which has less strands, and is smaller diameter) for cost effectiveness, I suppose. (I prefer 4 for a daily driver, 2 or 0 for competition)...long story short, 5 gauge will be fine. Make sure your fuse can handle it tho. I'm not sure what the draw rating is on them...but you may have to upgrade to a bigger fuse (near your battery)...I know my power acoustik amp drew a huge amount.

hope that helps...best of luck

[lpugfan2004]

Any recomendations on which optima battery and where i could get from for cheap

[lpugfan2004]

and would the battery i have work for a while cuz those batteries are expensive

[Pineapple]

If only the amp cut off and not the whole car, you're overheating/overloading the amp. Got nothing to do with battery or alternator. Also capacitors are a waste of money. Get big wires, higher output alternator and more batteries.

[Drey #24]

maybe you have too thin cabels from battery to amp

[JR]

yes your battery will work, but if you do get an optima go for a yellow top, it will definately help

[lpugfan2004]

Originally Posted by Drey #24

maybe you have too thin cabels from battery to amp

5 guage wire is plenty enough for this amp its only 800 watts

[MartinGouda]

Originally Posted by JR

if it is just the amp cutting out it could also be becuz the subs are drawing too much power from the amp...I had this happen before...the sub could handle way more than the amp could provide and tried to draw too much from the amp, which made the amp heat up and automatically shut itself off. Upgrading your amp is an awesome idea...I've dealt with power acoutiks before (both amps and subs) while the subs I had weren't what I needed they were still really good considering the price and what I put them thru, and their amps are really good too. for the price they are pretty hard to beat

this isn't true, subs take what they are given and arn't a draw on the system at all. they are a passive load. your amp cutting out is probably based on your wiring not your matching of components which in this case should be pretty close... i would assume the subs are in teh area of 300-500 rms and your amp makes 400 a channel. so don't listen to the above at all he's basing it on a bad experience, at which point he drew conclusions that wern't actually true.

Originally Posted by JR

as for capacitors...also a really good idea, to save your alternator...rule of thumb is 1 farad (1 cap) per 1000W, so technically 2 would be ideal, and if you can afford it, would be a good choice, otherwise, one would do fine. another good upgrade would be an optima battery.

a cap will stiffen the bass but not resolve your issues, leave that for later as it won't help at this point.

Originally Posted by JR

wiring...I've never even heard of 5 gauge...but non-the-less, it will be fine. When it comes to a daily driver stereo, most are wired with 8 gauge (which has less strands, and is smaller diameter) for cost effectiveness, I suppose. (I prefer 4 for a daily driver, 2 or 0 for competition)...long story short, 5 gauge will be fine. Make sure your fuse can handle it tho. I'm not sure what the draw rating is on them...but you may have to upgrade to a bigger fuse (near your battery)...I know my power acoustik amp drew a huge amount.

hope that helps...best of luck

wire selection is more to do with the abilty to use amps to their full potential than it is to do with simple opperation, changing gauge when it comes to power shouldn't effect anything at this point. if anything focus on your grounds.

Originally Posted by lpugfan2004

This is about my sound system in my car i didnt know where to put it so i posted it here....

OK

Ive got 2 12" kickers rated at 1200 watts peak power 2 ohm each
Ive got a 2 channel brigdgable 800 watt pioneer amp... which sometimes cuts off completely when i turn the volume to a certain point, ok i asked a friend about this and he told me that i needed to get a battery capacitor becauce the alternator and the battery couldnt supply the power needed when i turned it up.... is he correct?

NO! he's full of shit, a cap is really a battery that can release energy faster and in shorter bursts.

think of your battery like a water resovoir that has a small tap at the bottom. if you open that tap lets say that you can have a 10 liters of water pour in 10 seconds. this is what you have with a direct conection to the battery. this would translate to a 1-1 ratio of water to time. but if your amp is "thirsty" it will need more energy than 1 per second but it may only need it every 3 seconds. what a cap does is simple. it stores energy (water) and allows it to be dumped out much more quickly to what needs it. so lets say the song has a bass stroke every 3 seconds. now instead of it having a single unit of power it would have 3 to use as it sees fit.

people always say "get a cap" when they don't know what they do. infact i have found that anyone that says that with out checking every other option is usualy an audio moron.

Originally Posted by lpugfan2004

ok onto the next thing about this he has a 1600 watt 2 channel Power Acoustics amp which i plan on buying from him in the next week since i was going to get a battery cap anyways ill just get a bigger one to support this amp.... now my question is how big of a battery capacitor do i need to handle the 1600 watts amp put to both subs 800 to each right now im only using 1 sub with 800 to one because the 400 to each sounds like shit....and it still cuts the amp off so i think i do need the cap

this is really a simple math question when it comes to "what will do" but really you should think about what you can afford. a single farad will do on this setup but i suggest a dual single setup.

but what you are saying to me here again is "my system is wired all wrong and my tuning is way off" the subs should sound much better being pushed in series in unison and if your eq is setup well then i would say there should be no way a single sub would sound better.

Originally Posted by lpugfan2004

and my next question is that i have 5 gauge wire running my amp atm the guy that installed this amp said that could handle a 1600 watt power acoustics with no problem at all is he right? if not which gauge wire is recommended

there is no 5 gauge wire in car audio, it simply isn't used. i think you are probably on 4 gauge and suggest you read the wire casing to make sure. 4 gauge will be fine with a PA1600 but really i think you are going the wrong route. the amp will not solve your issues alone and neither will the cap. car audio is not about throwing more parts in the system it's about using the ones you have correctly.

my advice is simple.

take apart EVERYTHING IN THE CAR.

then start with the deck and work your way back

1st make sure every one of your connections is strong and that all your grounds are bigger than your power cables. then add a ground to the basket of each speaker if they arn't on metal already (other than the subs) and then add an 8gauge ground strap to the deck it's self.

2nd run your power and remote cables on the side of your car with the battery as straight as you can to the trunk with out crossing them with any other car audio lines BE SURE TO HOOK UP THE REMOTE TO THE PROPER CABLE ON YOUR DECK some decks have power antenna signals and remots and you have to be sure you use the right one as the signal on others can be shitty.

3rd sand the shit out of the connection where your trunk ground is. make sure that this is a 2 gauge if you are running a 4 gauge power.

4th run your patch cables from your deck to the amp with out crossing anything at all
at this point tune your amp to all it's simplest settings. no lp or hp filters and put the gain at about half.

5th pull the subs outta the box and check the polarity on them subs operating in series means everything when it comes to sound. then hook up the subs in the simplest setup you can l to l and r to r

6th if this setup isn't working for you run the lp filter on the amp, then tune the filter slowly to find the "sweet spot" of the subs.

at this point if the amp keeps turning off then you should take a small lead from the B+ terminal and send that power to the remote terminal and see if the problem happens again. if it does your problem is in the amp or the subs, if it stays on your issue is with the deck.

if you want a mean system then do that and then post here again with the results. also while you are at it get me product numbers for everything and i'll be able to help more. as for piney's statments.... it's probably not overheating that we need to trouble shoot but if the ground is too small or the subs are hooked up wrong then that could be the cause of over heating. but he's right the amps often have "fail circuts" to protect them from blowing out and ruining the internals and that's what i suspect the issue is with turning on and off on you.

Originally Posted by lpugfan2004

thanks for the help
~Matt

you are welcome




ps, a car audio system is only as good as the size of it's grounds.

[lpugfan2004]

Thanks Martin,

Some input i forgot to add is that the amp only cuts off when i turn the volume past 11 on my deck then the amp cuts out the led on the amp turns red and the only way for it to cut back on is to turn the deck off and turn it back and it works like normal until i turn it back on, this may change the problem possibly, itll run all day until i turn the volume up to a certain lvl that is why my friend thought it may be that i need a cap....

also should i run the power from the battery and the audio from the headunit on the the same side of the car or should i do opposite sides of the car for each set?

the only reason i am getting the PA1600 amp is because the guy im friends with only wants it for my amp straight up and thats it no money on top or anything i know it works he used to use it on his 2 12" solo baric kickers which he got rid of a week ago so i know the amp works i just think he is looking for a smaller system, since the amp is at no cost to me at all i was figuring i would go ahead and set it up in my car

when i get the chance maybe this weekend i will do what u recommended, should have done all the wiring myself in the first place but i took it to a shop b/c i could not have waited

the only reasoni have 4 guage wire on there is because the kit i ordered off ebay... stupid idea said it was supposed to be 8 guage wire which in turn it was 14 guage with a shit load of insulation on it to make it look like 8 guage and the 4 was the only kit the guy had

let me know what u think i should still do since the smp is not costing me a thing

i dont have product numbers i bought these subs and amps from a friend and i dont thnk he has them ill do some searching and find you something all i know is that the subs are 12" CVR Kickers thats off the top of my head on brand and type and thats all the info i have available since its raining and i dont want to go out and get wet for a product info or anything it can wait

~Matt

[Pineapple]

Amp overloading. Got nothing to do with cap, battery, wire and alt.

[MartinGouda]

4 gauge is great... i'll write more later but the gauge is fine.. as for the trade... i'd be careful it sounds like a trap

[lpugfan2004]

more is great keep helping pls :D

~Matt

[MartinGouda]

Originally Posted by lpugfan2004

Thanks Martin,

Some input i forgot to add is that the amp only cuts off when i turn the volume past 11 on my deck then the amp cuts out the led on the amp turns red and the only way for it to cut back on is to turn the deck off and turn it back and it works like normal until i turn it back on, this may change the problem possibly, itll run all day until i turn the volume up to a certain lvl that is why my friend thought it may be that i need a cap....

no this means that you have a grounding or circut issue.. rewiring it correctly will resolve it. I AM SURE of this. you shouldn't need anything new at all other than maybe bigger and better grounds.

Originally Posted by lpugfan2004

also should i run the power from the battery and the audio from the headunit on the the same side of the car or should i do opposite sides of the car for each set?

ok the rule of thumb here is 6 inchs apart at all times. but my way is simple. i run signal down the center of the car and power down the sides. i always ground bigger than i need to and i always make sure that my wiring is LONGER than i need it to be. most people will tell you that grounds are better short. i agree but at the same time systems always end up being changed and stuff so i like to keep my wiring long jsut incase i need to give it a few trims over time or my new toys have terminals in diffrent spots than the old ones.

so to recap, signal wires and power should never travel together. the remote wire only sends a little signal to let the amp know that it's on which switchs a relay in the amp to turn it on. this also lets you turn off the amp to save juice on high end decks when you turn off the bass by turning off the unused amps. your power is usualy best kept away from your signal wires. the remote wire won't harm anything so typicaly what i would do is get a nice set of patch cables with a remote wire in between them. usualy this will save you having to fish a few spots and will speed up the process behind the dash too as the remote and signal cables will be going to and from the same places. but the power cord should never be closer than 6 inches to that signal as it can create noise in the cables no matter how shielded it is.

if you don't want to buy a new set pull your rca's apart then get a remote wire that's 4 feet longer than them, then braid them all together in a typical braid pattern. don't know how to braid?...



follow the image and you'll have a nice one peice connection from the deck to the amp that will look sick and do a better job than a linear pairing of wires

(the reason a braid is better is that the signal will cross the other channel at a less matched angle thus giveing them less time to distort each other. think of the signals like two magnets flowing in tubes from the deck to the amp and this way they are only attracted when they cross instead of the whole way down the lines which will help with signal loss, which is pretty much not even audible to the human ear but at the end of the day it helps when all these little tricks add up.)

kits are usualy made up of random trash, my car is all DBLINK wiring and my old car had been everything from RF to PG. it can get expensive and really some people will say it's jsut bling for nothing but at 10.99 a set you can't go wrong with streetwires.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-dA0QiOP...719&I=211LN220


throw those on the car. check the speaker wires for any issues and be sure to check from the amp to the speakers not from the amp to the box. there are often issues INSIDE THE BOXES where wires will be touching or crossed up due to lazy or stupid installers (the same guys that say "get a cap" all the time) that don't look at the polarity of the speakers (again you want to go R+ to R+ and L+ to L+ and R- to R- and L- to L-). do that then hook up a big 2 gauge ground with gold connectors at the metal and you should be over your issue with the amp. 4 will do if you want to keep it cheap but grounds are like the "escape" for the electricy so you can only get as much in as you let out. increasing your ground will decrease temps on the amp and increase flow over all the circuty. at that that point you can try running them mono, inline, bridged, mixed or anything else you can come up with to try to find "your sound" personaly i love my music clear so stereo is best for me and i find if you choose your components well you should be able to up the bass at teh deck as you see fit.

Originally Posted by lpugfan2004

the only reason i am getting the PA1600 amp is because the guy im friends with only wants it for my amp straight up and thats it no money on top or anything i know it works he used to use it on his 2 12" solo baric kickers which he got rid of a week ago so i know the amp works i just think he is looking for a smaller system, since the amp is at no cost to me at all i was figuring i would go ahead and set it up in my car

I would really get yours running mint first then swap them and test it out. if it works and it's fine then go for it. once your amp is working fine all it should be is 9 wires to try something else and if your mounting and wiring technique is good you'll be fine. but from personal experience don't go swaping or trading anything until you have HEARD it in the car. some times more is less when it comes to these things and in my findings i like to have speakers that excede the ability of the amp, not the other way around.

a speaker has a potential and a peak for a reason. it will only sound good if you don't push it harder than it can be pushed. having an amp that is able to push it further than it can be is ok but then tuning becomes more complicated. in your position i would say that more power may sound worse untuned than what you have.

but on the other hand i'll help you tune it later if you choose to go that way.

Originally Posted by lpugfan2004

when i get the chance maybe this weekend i will do what u recommended, should have done all the wiring myself in the first place but i took it to a shop b/c i could not have waited

if you paid a shop then take it back and tell them to do it. it's their lack of professionalism that lead to this system malfunction. most shop owners know nothing about car audio but know alot about business. it's their responsibilty to back their work.

Originally Posted by lpugfan2004

the only reasoni have 4 guage wire on there is because the kit i ordered off ebay... stupid idea said it was supposed to be 8 guage wire which in turn it was 14 guage with a shit load of insulation on it to make it look like 8 guage and the 4 was the only kit the guy had

4 gauge is perfect for that amp. in my opinion until you are running over 1600w's mono in a d class amp there is no need for more than 4 and based on physics you can never have to much conductivity for an amp as it will only take what it needs anyways. think of it like supersizing your mcdonalds combo, maybe you won't eat all the fries but for .49 extra it's nice to have them on the tray.

Originally Posted by lpugfan2004

let me know what u think i should still do since the smp is not costing me a thing

i think you need to get what you have running crisp before you change anything.

Originally Posted by lpugfan2004

i dont have product numbers i bought these subs and amps from a friend and i dont thnk he has them ill do some searching and find you something all i know is that the subs are 12" CVR Kickers thats off the top of my head on brand and type and thats all the info i have available since its raining and i dont want to go out and get wet for a product info or anything it can wait

the kickers will have a number on the magnet when you open the box to do the wiring, write it down then, the head unit will say somewhere on the face or chassis and the amp will have some number on it some where. if you give me all that i can usualy estimate your ideal setup then you can go from there.

Originally Posted by lpugfan2004

~Matt

i hope this is all helping, car audio is all about trying new things and realising there are alot of options to resolve any issue. but usualy if you keep your basics strong your system will be there for you every time you turn the key.

~Martin

[lpugfan2004]

Well i hooked both subs up to one amp and asked a couple ppls opinion and they agreed with you it does sound better

i plan on working on the new wiring set-up u suggested as soon as it stops raining long enough for me to get out there and do it...

also with how it is wired should i stil use the subs? is there a chance of damaging either the subs or the amp?

o and the amp is a 800-watt Pioneer CRW-2-1980 <----came right off the front of the map if that helps? if not ill take the amp off the box and look on the back i just didnt have a screwdriver on me atm

Thanks

~Matt

[MartinGouda]

there is a chance of messing up the subs but if they havn't had an issue yet then you should be ok to continue...

[lpugfan2004]

Thanks,

Do the things i gave u about that amp help out any? Or do i need the subs info in order to continue

~Matt

[MartinGouda]

i need sub and deck

[lpugfan2004]

Ok heres the deck its a VR3 VRCD-USB630S Its a cheapo $99 walmart CD player i plan on putting a pioneer deck in there soon (within a month) this deck was in there when i bought the car it also came with the stock headunit as well in the trunk, heres a pic of the deck:





This is the pioneer deck i plan on getting:
Link to pionner site: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pn...078777,00.html
Pic:



Is this a good choice of CD Player or do u have any better recomendations?

Ok heres the sub i have in my car aparantly according to the site they are rated for 800 max and 400 nominal so my friend basically didnt know what he was talking about.......

Also heres a link to the site where i found the info: http://www.dealtime.com/xPF-Kicker_CVR12



Heres a pic of the amp:



Heres a pic of where the wires are running and all together..... on the driver side right beside the seat under the carpet:



And heres a pic of the hookup on the amp:



Also you said something back in your posts and i cant find it about some people wiring the power on for the amp from the headunit using the power antenna power on which i allowed at the installation because the power attena doesnt go down al the way and i just wanted to shut it off, is this ok? Or should i find another hookup to power it on because this was the only one he said he could have used.

And since the subs are made for 400 nominal and 800 MAX i will not be getting that bigger amp maybe in the future i would get a 1000 or 1200 watt amp but i doubt it so i will get working on how to get this set-up to its best performance.

Thanks Martin for all your help

~Matt

[MartinGouda]

use the ACC power. it's ghetto but it's less ghetto than using the antenna lead. the acc power is going to make sure it's on when the deck is on. where as the antenna may go off on some decks when using the cd or aux features.

it's not a bad idea to take the bigger amp
but mainly what i am saying is get what you have up and running first.

that wiring is TERRIBLE.. i would shoot anyone that did that to my car on the spot



this would be the WORST setup i would allow. try to mimic this then start thinking about my other posts and see what you can do about keeping everything seperated as much as possible.